This Date in Aviation History: August 4 - August 7

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 08/07/2018 at 12:35 • Filed to: wingspan, planelopnik history, Planelopnik

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Welcome to This Date in Aviation History , getting of you caught up on milestones, important historical events and people in aviation from August 4 through August 7.

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(Author unknown)

August 4, 1954 – The first flight of the English Electric Lightning P.1A. The world entered the nuclear age on August 6, 1945 when the US dropped the first of two atomic bombs on Japan in the hopes of ending the war and avoiding a bloody invasion. Though we live today with the Damoclean sword of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (ICBM), it was 14 years until the Soviets fielded the world’s !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in 1959. During those intervening years, the only method of delivering a nuclear weapon to a target was with high-flying bombers of ever-increasing speed in the hopes of outrunning defensive fighters. Therefore, it was vital to intercept the nuclear-armed bombers as early as possible, and this called for a special breed of fighter aircraft, one that could take off at a moment’s notice and fly as fast as possible to get to the bombers before the bombers could reach their target.

The Short SB.5 research aircraft, which was used to test different wing sweep angles. (Author unknown)

The idea of an !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! was not new, and their use dates all the way back to WWI. But in the jet age, supersonic speed became the all important factor in their development. When the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Lightning (following BAC’s merger with English Electric in 1960) entered service in 1960, it was the Royal Air Force’s only interceptor capable of Mach 2 speed. But this modern bomber hunter traces its roots all the way back to 1947, when !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the maker of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! bomber, was awarded a contract to develop a supersonic research aircraft. To achieve supersonic speeds, English Electric designers knew they would have to employ a swept wing, but they first had to determine the optimal amount of sweep. To do this, English Electric contracted with the Irish firm !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! to create the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , a scaled down research aircraft whose wing and tailplane could be adjusted to different angles for testing. Based on data gathered from the SB.5, English Electric chose an untapped wing with a severe 60-degrees of sweep, and the Lightning received its unique shape.

Another feature unique to the Lightning was its engine layout. Rather than place the two turbojet engines side-by-side, English Electric stacked the engines one on top of the other. This arrangement gave the Lightning the power to reach Mach 2 while also reducing drag and minimizing the frontal area of the fighter. The prototype Lightnings were powered by a pair of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! non-afterburning (or non-reheating to the British) axial flow turbojets. While the Sapphire was not as powerful as the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! turbojets which would be fitted on production aircraft, the Lightning still passed the sound barrier on its maiden flight. Following the successful testing of the prototypes, the P.1B, which featured the new Avon turbojet engines, took its first flight 1957 and, with the addition of a crude afterburner, allowed the Lightning to reach Mach 2.

The new interceptor entered service with the RAF in 1960 as the Lightning F1, and its primary mission was to intercept Soviet bombers and provide protection to airfields so British nuclear bombers, known as the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , could take off. Subsequent variants added to the Lightning’s capability with more weapons and improved radar. With so much power available to Lightning pilots, the interceptor could achieve an altitude of 36,000 feet in less than three minutes, and tests showed that the Lightning was capable of intercepting a high-flying !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! spyplane. But all that speed came at a cost. The Lightning burned fuel voraciously, and many of its missions were determined simply by the amount of fuel it could carry. While the RAF was the primary operator of the Lightning, it was also exported to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. A total of 337 aircraft were produced, but in its nearly 30 years of service, the Lightning was never used in combat, and only claimed one aircraft shot down: an unmanned RAF !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that was flying towards East Germany after its pilot ejected. The RAF retired their Lightnings in 1988, but a small number of aircraft still flying in the hands of private pilots.  

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August 5, 1943 – The Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP) is formed. Prior to the enactment of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in 1948, which enabled women to serve as permanent, regular members of the US armed forces, most American women served in non-military support organizations such as the US Navy’s !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (WAVES) and the US Army’s !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (WAC). Before that time, the only way for a woman to serve officially in the active duty military was as an Army nurse or in other support roles. During WWII, about 400,000 American women answered their country’s call, and more than 500 died, 16 from enemy fire. But with so many American men fighting overseas or serving in the military stateside, jobs that were traditionally filled only by men were being very capably filled by women for the first time. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! became a symbol of the new American workforce helping to supply Arsenal of Democracy with planes, tanks and ammunition, but for the first time, women began serving as pilots.

Jackie Cochran and Nancy Harkness Love. (US Air Force)

Before the war, pioneering aviators !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! each submitted a proposal to the Army to train women pilots to ferry aircraft from the factories where they were produced to their assigned bases or to points of embarkation overseas. They argued that every woman who flew an airplane stateside would free up one man for combat flying in Europe or the Pacific. Despite the lobbying efforts of First Lady !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , their requests were denied, so Cochran traveled to England where she joined the British !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , becoming one of the first American women to fly a military aircraft. In 1942, Love oversaw the creation of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (WAFS), which began by ferrying US Army Air Forces trainers and light aircraft, but eventually transitioned to fighters, bombers and large transports. Cochran returned to the US as the WAFS started flying and, with approval from General !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , she oversaw the formation of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (WFTD) in the summer of 1942. The two groups worked independently and well, and they were merged into the Women Airforce Service Pilots in 1943 under the direction of Cochran to codify training and operational standards. Though more than 25,000 women applied for the program, only 1,074 earned their wings. Primary training took place at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in Sweetwater, Texas, and their duties included not only ferrying aircraft but also carrying out test flights and towing targets for gunnery practice.

However, while women were doing the same work as their male military counterparts, the Army still resisted allowing them to become pilot officers. Cochran continued to put pressure on the Army Air Forces to grant the WASPs a commission into the USAAF, but Arnold resisted. Finally, Cochran issued an ultimatum: give the WASPs a commission or disband the group. The Army, faced with a glut of pilots and trainees, chose to disband the unit in December 1944 rather than create women officers. At the time the WASPs were disbanded, they had delivered 12,650 aircraft around the country and suffered 38 fatalities due to accidents. Despite giving their lives in service to their country, the Army did not afford any military honors at the funeral of a fallen WASP pilot. The pilot’s body was shipped home at family expense, and the family was not allowed to drape the American flag on the coffin. After the war, WASP veterans were barred from the honor of burial at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! until legislation was signed by President Barack Obama in 2016 allowing their interment. Though the WASPs opened the door for women military pilots, 30 more years would pass before !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! earned her wings in 1974 to become the first woman commissioned as a pilot in the US armed forces. She served in the US Navy until she lost her life in a training accident in 1982. The US Air Force followed suit in 1978 when it accepted its first female pilot, but women were still barred from official combat roles until 1993.

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The atomic mushroom cloud over Hiroshima, and the ruins of the Hiroshima Prefectural Industrial Promotion Hall. (US Air Force; Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum)

August 6, 1945 – The United States drops the Little Boy atomic bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima. Following the American victory in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in June 1942, the tide of battle in the Pacific turned decisively to America and her allies. The methodical !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! campaign began, as America captured strategic islands for the construction of air bases while bypassing large groups of entrenched Japanese soldiers on other islands and cutting off their flow of supplies. With the capture of Guam, Saipan and Tinian in June and August 1944, the US now had bases close enough to begin flying !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! on strategic bombing missions against Japan. But even the most modern bomber in the world could only be so accurate from high altitude, and with so much of the Japanese war production spread throughout the cities and into people’s homes, the bombing wasn’t terribly effective. Even after General !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! changed tactics in 1943 to the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of Japanese cities, resulting in huge loss of life, Japan fought on. It appeared that an invasion of the island would be the only way to end the war.

A map of Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of Japan. The US Amy estimated that as many as 800,000 US troops would die if the invasion went forward. (US Army)

In the largest amphibious assault of WWII, the US secured the island of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! on June 22, 1945 to serve as a launching point for the planned !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , a two-part invasion of Japan that was slated to begin on November 1, 1945. American war planners knew that an invasion would be costly, with initial estimates expecting 130,000-220,000 Allied casualties. Once it became clear that the Japanese were preparing defenses at the intended landing sites, casualty estimates leapt to 1.7-4 million, with 400,000-800,000 dead. The US went so far as to produce a half million !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! medals in preparation for the invasion. But could the war be ended without an invasion? Could the Americans strike such a devastating blow that the Japanese would finally capitulate?

A mockup of the Little Boy atomic bomb. Released in 1960, this was the first photo of the device to be shown publicly. (US Department of Energy)

Development of a nuclear bomb in the US dates back to before the war, when scientists who had fled Nazi Germany came to America with dire warnings of German advances in atomic science. In 1939, the Americans began working on their own bomb to counter the perceived German threat, with Berlin as a potential target. But work on the bomb progressed slowly, and the first successful test was not carried out until July 1945, after the war in Europe had ended. The organizational effort to create the group of pilots and planes that would drop the new weapon had begun in 1944 with the creation of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! under the command of Colonel !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! at Wendover Army Air Field in Utah. The 509th would be flying the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! B-29 Superfortress, which was specially modified to carry the new bombs and fitted with fuel injection, reversible pitch propellers, and special bomb bay doors that opened and closed quickly. To save weight and carry more fuel, all defensive armament was removed along with all armor plating.

Map of Target Area 90-30-748, Hiroshima Area, A-2 Section, XXI Bomber Command, June 1945. (National Archives)

On July 26, 1945, the Allies issued the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! which called for the unconditional surrender of Japan and threatened “prompt and utter destruction” if they did not comply. The Japanese, who had already shown their fanatical desire to fight to the death time and time again throughout the Pacific campaign, rejected the Allies’ call for surrender. Faced with the specter of a costly invasion, the US decided to drop the first atomic bomb on Japan. After consideration of numerous cities, Hiroshima was chosen as the first target because of its large military base, but also chosen the Americans wanted a target that was visible enough to have a psychological impact on the Japanese.

Tibbets and his crew departed Tinian in their B-29, named Enola Gay after Tibbets’ mother, for the six-hour flight to Hiroshima. Over Iwo Jima, Enola Gay was joined by two other B-29s. The first was named Great Artiste and was loaded with instruments to measure the explosion. The second, an unnamed B-29, served as a photo ship. Thirty minutes from the target, mission commander Captain !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! armed the   !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! atomic bomb. Tibbets started the bombing run completely unopposed over the unsuspecting city, and released the bomb at 8:15 am (Hiroshima time). The massive explosion killed 70,000-80,000 people in the city, both soldiers and civilians, roughly 30% of the population. More than 70,000 were injured, and 4.7 square miles of the city were destroyed as massive fires engulfed the wooden buildings in the city. Those residents who survived the blast suffered horrifying burns, radiation sickness, and a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of other maladies. The next day, President !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! gave an !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! to the nation, and offered Japan a grave warning:

We are now prepared to obliterate more rapidly and completely every productive enterprise the Japanese have above ground in any city. We shall destroy their docks, their factories, and their communications. Let there be no mistake; we shall completely destroy Japan’s power to make war. . . . If they do not now accept our terms they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth. Behind this air attack will follow sea and land forces in such numbers and power as they have not yet seen and with the fighting skill of which they are already well aware.

Despite Truman’s promise of more nuclear attacks, the Japanese government remained silent, and did not surrender. So Truman made good on his word. The bombing of Hiroshima was followed three days later by a second atomic attack, this time on the city of Nagasaki carried out by a Silverplate B-29 nicknamed !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . It was only after this second attack that the Japanese government finally agreed to an unconditional surrender on August 15, 1945, bringing an end to the Second World War.

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Short Takeoff

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August 4, 1971 – The first flight of the AgustaWestland AW109, a twin-engine lightweight helicopter and the first all-Italian helicopter to enter mass production. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (now AgustaWestland, a subsidiary of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ) originally designed the A109 in the late 1960s with a single engine, but it was soon evident that a second engine was necessary to provide the necessary lifting power. Today, the AW109 is powered by a pair of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! turbine engines and can accommodate up to seven passengers at a top speed of just under 200 mph. The AW109 entered service in 1976 and is flown by military and government agencies all over the world, and commonly serves as an air ambulance or for corporate transportation.

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August 6, 1996 – The first flight of the Kawasaki OH-1, a military scout and observation helicopter developed for the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force and the first helicopter entirely produced in Japan. Nicknamed Ninja, the OH-1 was created as a replacement for the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! light observation helicopter (LOH or “Loach”) and entered service in 2000. The OH-1 is powered by two Mitsubishi TS1 turboshaft engines which provide a maximum speed of 173 mph, and is fitted with an asymmetric !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! tail rotor that reduces noise and vibration. Development included an attack variant that was rejected in favor of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . A total of 38 helicopters have been produced and the Ninja remains in production.

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(US Air Force)

August 6, 1945 – The death of Richard Bong, one of the United States’ most decorated fighter pilots and the highest-scoring American ace of WWII. Bong was born in Superior, Wisconsin on September 24, 1920, and received his wings in January 1942. During the war, Bong flew the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! exclusively, and made the first of his 40 total victories on December 27, 1942. For his service, Bong was awarded the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in 1944 and was sent home to help sell war bonds. Following the war, Bong became a test pilot for Lockheed, but was killed when the fuel pump of his !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! malfunctioned during takeoff. Bong ejected, but was too close to the ground for his parachute to open fully.

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(US Air Force)

August 7, 1990 – Operation Desert Shield begins. Following the Iraqi !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of Kuwait on August 2, 1990, US President !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! deployed US forces to Saudi Arabia to protect America’s strategic ally from further aggression by Iraqi President !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Air assets of the US Air Force and US Navy teamed with aircraft from Saudi Arabia, Great Britain and France, eventually forming a coalition of 48 nations resolved to oust Saddam from Kuwait. Five months of air operations to protect the buildup of 120,000 soldiers saw Operation Desert Shield become Operation Desert Storm, with the Coalition invasion to liberate Kuwait beginning on January 17, 1991 in what would come to be known as the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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(NASA)

August 7, 1963 – The first flight of the Lockheed YF-12, a two-seat interceptor variant of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! reconnaissance aircraft. The YF-12 was developed in response to an Air Force requirement for an interceptor to replace the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that would be capable of speeds up to Mach 3. Following the cancelation of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , Lockheed’s !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! proposed version of the A-12 that would be fitted with the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! fire control system and armed with !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! missiles, specially modified to be fired by the YF-12 from internal missile bays. The Air Force ordered three prototypes and, during flight testing, the YF-12 set speed and altitude records for an interceptor of 2,070 mph and 80,257 feet. The YF-12 program was canceled in 1968, though the prototypes served as NASA test aircraft until 1979.

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(US Navy)

August 7, 1951 – The first flight of the McDonnell F3H (F-3) Demon, a single-seat fighter and interceptor developed for the US Navy as the successor to the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Unlike other fighters that were swept-wing variants of earlier sraight-winged aircraft, the Banshee was designed from the start with swept wings in an effort to counter Soviet fighter aircraft, though it was not capable of supersonic flight. Problems with engines plagued the Demon throughout its service life, and it was retired before it could serve in the Vietnam War. Despite difficulties with the Demon’s development, it ultimately served as the basis for the design of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , which replaced the Demon in Navy service.

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August 7, 1929 – The Graf Zeppelin (LZ-127) begins the first circumnavigation of the world by air. Before the great ocean-spanning airliners, Zeppelins were the primary means of intercontinental travel. The Graf Zeppelin took its maiden flight on September 18, 1928, and completed its first flight to the United States the following month. At the urging of US newspaper magnate !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the Graf Zeppelin began its eastward flight around the world by leaving Lakehurst, New Jersey and flying for Friedrichshafen in Germany before heading across the Soviet Union, Siberia, Japan, and then across the Pacific Ocean and back to New Jersey. The circumnavigation took 12 days to complete and covered 21,000 miles. On board was Hearst reporter !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! who became the first woman to travel around the world.

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Connecting Flights

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If you enjoy these Aviation History posts, please let me know in the comments. And if you missed any of the past articles, you can find them all at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . You can also find more stories about aviation, aviators and airplane oddities at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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random001 > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 12:50

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user314 > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 13:01

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AuthiCooper1300 > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 13:04

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Wonderful, as usual. This date seems to be packed with interesting events too!

You may find the following of interest:

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Although it is now clear that the German nuclear program never came close to producing a bomb, there is no doubt that it provided an impetus for the Manhattan Project. Often forgotten in the wake of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that the Manhattan Project was originally conceived for the war in Europe, but the bomb was not ready for operational use in time. [ . . . ]

from

https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/german-atomic-bomb-project

I w o n d e r w h a t w a s t h e l i s t o f l i k e l y t a r g e t s . W o u l d t h e y h a v e c h o s e n a p l a c e l i k e H a m b u r g o r K a s s e l – o r o b l i t e r a t e s o m e t h i n g s m a l l e r , a s a w a r n i ng of sorts?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 13:07

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https://impdb.org/index.php?title=Category:BAC_Lightning

It appears outside of promotional pieces the biggest appearance of Lightnings in film was in Those Magnificent Men. The first film that comes to mind for me as featuring Lightnings, but still something of a surprise.

ttyymmnn > AuthiCooper1300 08/07/2018 at 13:09

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I first heard about Germany being the target from a WWII re-enacter. I said, “Aw, that’s bullshit.” But then I went home and read about it. While the bomb was originally intended for Germany, I always wonder if the US would have actually dropped it. Though I have found nothing to corroborate this, I still believe that it was easier for America to drop the bomb on “those slant-eye yellow Japs ” than it would have been to drop it on our white European forebears .

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/07/2018 at 13:11

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A cameo at best.

user314 > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 13:17

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Love the YF-12!

Built from the 7th, 8th and 9th A-12s ordered by the CIA, the YF-12s, initially called AF-12s, are the largest interceptors to date. Of the three, No. 60-6935 is the only survivor, and is on display at the USAF Museum in Dayton. No. 60-6934 was damaged in a rough landing which led to a fire. The back half was salvaged, and was mated to the front half of an SR-71 static test article to create the SR-71C trainer, commonly known as “ The Bastard ”. No. 60-6936 was destroyed after an in-flight fire.

Had the YF-12 not been canceled, the F-12B production aircraft would have had a reshaped nose, with the chines extended along the radome. This would have resulted in a more stable aircraft, and the folding fin under the belly would have been removed as well.

AuthiCooper1300 > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 13:19

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No doubt about ther e c o uld have been some underlying racism... but bear also in mind that the Allies were seriously afraid of the possibility of a long , e x t r e m e l y b l o o d y g u e r i l l a war in the A l p e n f e s t u n g . Of course Nazi Germany literally bled itself white before that could e v e n b e g i n t o happen.

Still, some sort of study must have carried out about likely targets, excluding Berlin, of industrial and/or symbolic importance (say, Nuremberg).

T h e r e m u s t b e a l i s t s o m e w h e r e .

ttyymmnn > user314 08/07/2018 at 13:21

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Peek-a-boo! From my visit last summer.

ttyymmnn > AuthiCooper1300 08/07/2018 at 13:26

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A very good read here about all of these issues.

Hamtractor > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 13:48

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They were going to drop a nuke no matter who it got dropped on, a lot of sources have said that Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren’t actually bombed to prevent the invasion of mainland Japan, as the Japanese mi litary was essentially in ruins and the ci vilian population wasn’t really feeling the urge to fight a bloo dy war on their already wasted city streets. The bombs were dropped in order to have a “justified” war-time deployment of a nuclear weapon to show the rest of the world just how powerful they were, mostly to scare the Soviets. Many of the top brass involved with the planning of the invasion and the the planning to use The Bomb have stated this as the case. As far as not using it in Germany, the bomb wasn’t ready by the time the Nazis called it quits, it was only like three weeks from the first successful test to the first drop in combat...

wkiernan > AuthiCooper1300 08/07/2018 at 13:54

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Don’t forget that at least part of the motivation to use the atomic bomb was to impress the Russians and push back against their military dominance in Europe. How better to do that than a demonstration against G ermany?

AuthiCooper1300 > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 13:54

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F a s c i n a t i ng , t h a n k y o u .

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 13:57

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At least we have Streaked Lightning.

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/07/2018 at 13:59

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Dat music, doe. Absolutely perfect.

“Climb two Everests in three minutes.” Then turn around and go home because you’re out of gas.

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 14:03

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Not Fun Fact: When the Atomic Bombs were dropped on Japan, the Imperial Army still had over a million troops actively engaged in China.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 14:03

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You saw how some stock footage of a Lightning was used in a Fantomas movie at my IMPDB link? I haven’t checked if it overlaps with Streaked Lightning . If it doesn’t and that footage only still survives in a French comic book caper, that would be both perfect and idiotic.

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 14:04

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I think they absolutely would have dropped it, probably on Munich. The allies had no problem with bombing Nazis.

For Sweden > Hamtractor 08/07/2018 at 14:05

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I don’t know why you’re using scare-quotes around “justified” when it comes to bombing fascists.

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 08/07/2018 at 14:11

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IMPDB gives the SN for the Lighting in the movie. You could probably compare pretty easily, but I bet they did cop the footage.

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 08/07/2018 at 14:13

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Yes, we, myself included, tend to forget that the Allies had already bombed many German cities into smoking rubble, with tens of thousands of casualties. I suppose to them, it was just another bomb. Though the thought of the Germans getting their hands on one, should it not detonate, was a real concern.

user314 > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 14:50

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Interesting that they split the difference between nose-mounted sensors like the Apache and an MMS like the Kiowa Warrior, and put the turret  above the pilot. Also of note: the background Ninja is wearing skis.

ttyymmnn > user314 08/07/2018 at 14:53

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Hah! Hadn’t noticed the skis. 

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 14:59

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I was here just the d ay before

Hamtractor > For Sweden 08/07/2018 at 15:08

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The firebombing raids killed far more people and laid waste to far more mil itary and industrial centers... Hirohito was already advocating for cessation of hostilities and trying to overcome the military leadership’s bloodlust. The “scare quotes”, whatever that is, were just to show that we didn’t have to necessarily use the bomb. The Japanese were blockaded, starving and without raw materials or anything resembling a functional naval or air capable military. Even without continued firebombing, w e could have starved them out in less than a year. Don’t get me wrong, I fully support the use of the Bomb on any of the Axis forces or people at that time. I’m just saying that the actual reasoning behind the dropping of those bombs was far more likely show of force for an ascendant Stalin and his cronies than it was a desperate attempt to avoid an invasion of the Japanese Islands...

Also, I lived in Yokosuka, Japan for a couple of years, visited Hiroshima, and have Japanese friends that I still talk to today. Much of the Japanese positions I just went over were relayed to me by them as stories from the grandparents and surviving relatives...

ttyymmnn > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 08/07/2018 at 15:09

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I know! I replied to you with a link to my pictures. 

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 15:16

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At least it’s all downhill and you can coast it in.

I wonder why no other planes ever used the vertical twin engine arrangement?

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > user314 08/07/2018 at 15:18

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Higher is better for a sensor package since you can keep the rest of the helicopter hidden behind terrain. Unfortunately mounting something that needs to stay stationary on top of a rotating oil leak spinning rotor brings about a lot of engineering challenges and expense.

For Sweden > Hamtractor 08/07/2018 at 15:23

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Japan had over a million soldiers actively engaged in China when the bombs fell. If bombing fascists saves Chinese lives , not bombing fascists is unforgivable.

ttyymmnn > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 08/07/2018 at 15:39

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I did some googling, and there are some suggestions, though no definitive answers. One is that oil etc from the top engine would drip down onto the lower engine. That could certainly be a problem. Once fighters moved away from nose air intakes, having side-by-side engines made airflow easier. You also can’t have thrust vectoring on an over/under engine arrangement. And the stack also makes for a very tall fuselage. So, my guess is that they stacked them in the Lightning to get two engines more easily fed by a single centerline air intake, but then ditched the idea moving forward.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 15:45

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That makes a lot of sense.  Plus as engines have gotten so much more powerful there isn’t such a need to minimize frontal area.  Thinking a little more critically about that arrangement, it would also make it a lot more difficult to store fuel or anything else in the fuselage.

ttyymmnn > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 08/07/2018 at 15:53

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I’m thinking now which was the last US fighter to have a front intake. My brain says the F-8 Crusader, which of course only had one engine.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > ttyymmnn 08/07/2018 at 18:21

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Depending on your definition of fighter you’re either right on, or incredibly close but off by a decade. The F-8 is the last F designated aircraft that I can find with a nose intake, and it first flew in March 1955.

The last single seater that had a nose intake was the A-7 Corsair II which first flew in September 1965. It’s not exactly a fighter, but it wasn’t exactly not a fighter either as it was capable of carrying AA missiles in addition to its internal gun.

We almost had another one, had the X-32 won the JSF competition. 

ttyymmnn > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 08/07/2018 at 18:32

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You’re right—I got my maiden flights backwards. I was sitting here going through my Fs. F-9 Panther/ Cougar, the F-10 was a rebadged F3D Skyknight, F-11 Tiger, YF-12, (we’ll ignore the XFV-12), and it seems  there wasn’t an F-13. Triskaidekaphobia?

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Hamtractor 08/07/2018 at 23:12

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My history teacher in high school and I would always have “i wonder if” conversations. One was if the bombing was to not just Scare the soviets, but to end the war before they could gobble up any more territory. The soviets were able to supply an army by rail and  bring a scale of infantry, armor and artillery that the US never could by ship. and thus a steamroller the japanese had never seen. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > For Sweden 08/07/2018 at 23:28

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I t really was the shittiest situation for the chinese civilians, stuck between a corrupt fascist government, racis t foreign invader and the communists that for the time being would show a to ken caring for the people.Chiang Kai shek was pretty much the definiton of a fascist. He was working with the nazis for military advisors and to set up his own secret police network.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > ttyymmnn 08/08/2018 at 05:26

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“ the Lightning still passed the sound barrier”

Which, according to Wikipedia, made it the first production aircraft to supercruise. Inasmuch as “ cruise” is a concept in a plane with a range of about 1/4 mile. 

Hamtractor > For Sweden 08/08/2018 at 10:01

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The Rape of Nanking and Unit 731 alone were justification for using atomic weapons, IMO.  I’m only saying that the actual reasons the US Government dropped the Bomb were far more geopolitical pre-emptive displays of power as opposed to the usual “avoid the invasion” party line...  I think For Sweden and I are actually in agreement as far as the need, just maybe a bit divergent on the actual reasoning.  Hell, I think we should have nuked Grenada!